The EL / EP / EK outcome

[turbocab]

Good stuff, if anyone in aus can pull this off, your definately top of the list!

Do us proud.

p.s i think some of those blocks are jap or rare. NZ get all the jap leftovers

ide put me at the bottom of the list but ide like to have a crack

[mangusta]

I'm doing a quick rebuild on my T1 motor at the moment, however, in the shed I have nearly two entire T1 motors and a T2 minus turbo.

I will take a look around to see if I can find any EL cvcc motors and maybe look at getting the cheapest I can find to do some measurements.

Can't promise anything yet, but will aim to fit std T2 gear onto el... Did the EL come with injection? if so, I'll run the el injectors from the T2 computer, and it might not run lean... Dad and I will look into s/h motors see if we can find one soon...

[James]

I'm doing a quick rebuild on my T1 motor at the moment, however, in the shed I have nearly two entire T1 motors and a T2 minus turbo.

I will take a look around to see if I can find any EL cvcc motors and maybe look at getting the cheapest I can find to do some measurements.

Can't promise anything yet, but will aim to fit std T2 gear onto el... Did the EL come with injection? if so, I'll run the el injectors from the T2 computer, and it might not run lean... Dad and I will look into s/h motors see if we can find one soon...

EL is non-cvcc. It never came injected. You can fit the T2 intake manifold on it by building up over the ports with weld or resin then grinding the injector cutouts. You also have to move two bolt holes.

You can fit the cam angle sensor by adding one bolt hole on the front of the block. Use the T2 cam and dizzy, you can use T2 gearbox and flywheel if you drill out the holes in the flywheel and use the EL bolts ( I think, can't confirm).

EDIT: Just read your post turbocab, will reply to it tomorrow

[city_cabriolet]

With the EL having 8.8:1 compression ratio, you won't get 20 psi like a T2.

But you should get more torque and better boost pickup. Without even considering more cubes. All the late model turbo's seem to be around high 8's for compression ratio, detination shouldn't be a problem...

Or will the T2 head change the compression ratio? Or shave it down to lower it?

[mangusta]

ah, no cvcc means no 28deg advance and no massive boost, hrmmmm

Still, worth a look at, will try to call some wreckers this week, see if anyone has a motor lying around...

Also need to work out what fuel rate the 1.2 injectors flow, and try to work out the math to get larger injectors, then, hopefully, could put T2 gear straight on the EL, and use the T2 computer to control it, probably have to rework ports in throttle body, and maybe it'll work...

[James]

With the EL having 8.8:1 compression ratio, you won't get 20 psi like a T2.

But you should get more torque and better boost pickup. Without even considering more cubes. All the late model turbo's seem to be around high 8's for compression ratio, detination shouldn't be a problem...

Or will the T2 head change the compression ratio? Or shave it down to lower it?

8.8:1 is a good street turbo comp ratio to run on high octane pump gas. Many of the modern turbo cars are running in the low 9's now.

You would never consider putting a T2 head on an EL block, that would be completely against the main reason you are going for the EL head, to get bigger valves and better flow.

ah, no cvcc means no 28deg advance and no massive boost, hrmmmm

Still, worth a look at, will try to call some wreckers this week, see if anyone has a motor lying around...

Also need to work out what fuel rate the 1.2 injectors flow, and try to work out the math to get larger injectors, then, hopefully, could put T2 gear straight on the EL, and use the T2 computer to control it, probably have to rework ports in throttle body, and maybe it'll work...

I believe the large amount of advance our motors need is because of the time delay in flame propigation from the cvcc chamber into the main chamber. You can run massive boost without CVCC. CVCC probably does idiot proof large boost on the city turbo motors a bit but with the correctly chosen plugs and a well tuned engine the benifits would be minimal.

The T1 injectors flow 140cc/min and the T2 145cc/min from memory (you can search its on this forum somewhere). You can bolt in various sizes up to 240cc from other honda's.

You need the EL engine from an accord or prelude from 79 onwards I believe. As long as the port configuration is the same as the city head (IEEIIEEI) then thats the motor to go with, I believe the later model ones from 82 onwards had better oiling.

If you go to all the trouble of changing to an EL block the last thing you want to keep is the T2 throttle system. It is a major bottleneck in even a slightly modified standard 1.2 city turbo engine and will be a huge restriction to an EL. My advice is to get a city turbo manfiold, cut the runner off just after the injector bosses, then weld on some straigh runners into a log style plenum. Then use a larger throttle body off an Si civic or similar, around 55-60mm in diameter should be heaps.

You may get a reasonably driveable setup from running appropriately sized injectors and a T2 computer. I wouldn't risk it without a wideband o2 to keep an eye on things.

I have been talking to a guy in the states who has turbocharged an 1800cc stroked EL engine. He has used a megasquirt ECU with ignition control. He has broken two sets of cheap aftermarket pistons running about 7-10psi of boost. He said the original pistons are a lot stronger cut I wouldn't expect them to take a lot more than around 12psi for very long (if the head gasket holds, another major issue).

Ideally we want stronger pistons in an EL. I have searched around quite a bit to try and find a modern car that has a bore of 77mm (EL and EK bore) the closest I can find is a nissan rb20det engine which has a bore of 78mm. I done knnow if they are otherwise suitable but its worth investigation.

IMHO if you want to go for an EL block you should do it properly. If its done half-assed it will just be a frustrating mess of problems.

If you aren't prepared to go the whole hog then you can still make a pretty decent amount of power from a city motor pretty easily.

[mangusta]

Yeah, am rebuilding T1 motor for now anyway...

Also, with the pistons, I'm wondering if anyone knows what the "Compression Height" basically gudgeon to deck height of the Honda pistons, as the f10a first oversize suzuki pistons would nearly fit direct swap for the honda pistons. The gudgeon is smaller in the suzuki piston (1 mm) which means it would be possible to machine pins down to fit suzi onto honda con rod, just need to find out if the deck height is the same (suzuki is 24.5mm) If it's the same, or within 20 thou, could be a cheap option for new pistons for an ER... Will also look into the conrod sizes on the f10a, could even be lucky enough to do a full rod up swap...

[QikLude]

Yo all!

good to see this topic again

I havent got an el and played with it yet, but am still keen to look at it some time.
I have a spare aftermarket ECU kicking about which will be good to run on a motor if i can find and build one.

With a cam angle and crank angle sensor you could run wasted spark and get rid of distributor aswell, no more vacume advance issues

From memory most of those motors have cam angle sensor, anyone know if theres crank angle?

Cheers

[James]

Only E series engine with a cam angle sensor is the city turbo. Surely you only need cam angle for igntion? Why would you need crank too.

[ProT]

Yeah, am rebuilding T1 motor for now anyway...

Also, with the pistons, I'm wondering if anyone knows what the "Compression Height" basically gudgeon to deck height of the Honda pistons, as the f10a first oversize suzuki pistons would nearly fit direct swap for the honda pistons. The gudgeon is smaller in the suzuki piston (1 mm) which means it would be possible to machine pins down to fit suzi onto honda con rod, just need to find out if the deck height is the same (suzuki is 24.5mm) If it's the same, or within 20 thou, could be a cheap option for new pistons for an ER... Will also look into the conrod sizes on the f10a, could even be lucky enough to do a full rod up swap...

Has there been any progress or news on this?

I found on the web, the F10a pistons and rings are less than $230 retail.

I'd sure like to know if this is possible. I would rather avoid the cost of custom pistons and rings with my engine rebuild.

[mangusta]

The f10a rings can be fitted to ER pistons, after comp grooves are machined out to 1.5mm (from 1.2) This costs about $100 the rings themselves are around $80 a set.

Doesn't appear to be viable to put suzuki pistons in an er, the deck height is different and they aren't flat top like the Honda engines...

I have asked around at the possibility of getting pistons made, but noone seems interested in doing it.

[ProT]

You could try here.

http://www.ariaspistons.com/custompistons.html

[James]

OK I may have made a bit of a breakthrough with EL/EK pistons, does anyone have an EL piston around to take some measurements off?

[James]

Only E series engine with a cam angle sensor is the city turbo. Surely you only need cam angle for igntion? Why would you need crank too.

Funnily enough this is wrong, the injected EW also runs a cam angle sensor

Still waiting for someone to find an EL piston, the breakthrough I found was that the new supercharged mini coopers have the same bore, and similar piston pin, just have to check compression height.

[James]

Supercharged mini cooper pistons are just about exactly the right size, they just have a 3mm too big piston pin Aluminium bushes in the piston and your away laughing.

EL pistons are flat top and haveately 27mm compression height, where the Mini pistons have a 26.5mm compression height, they also have valve reliefes so they will drop the compression in an EL slighty, stay about the same in an EK.