The EL / EP / EK outcome

[QikLude]

Hi all.

I know its been covered, just hard to find.
What was the outcome with the ability to use a EL motor for a larger displacement motor, Ive been offered one for free, so wanted to know.

EK/ep's are resonably hard to come by!

Cheers

Jw

[James]

Colza and I found during our massive engine hunt that neither EP nor EK were particularily difficult to find, it was just they were impossible to find with the correct manifold config, it was most frustraing. The City turbo exhaust manifold bolts onto the EL motor, as does the intake manifold with the removal of two studs and their repositioning slightly wider. It also requires that you build up material on top of the ports on the head, either as I did by tig welding some ali onto it and getting the face milled flat, then you have to take to it with a die grinder or some enthuisiastic filing, this is require so injectors can squirt into the ports, and for the manifold to seal as the port surface on the EL is not quite high enough. Also need to block off the cvcc ports if using a stock manifold.
The TDC sensor has its back-most bolt hole and its bottom-most bolt holebut it does not have the top forward one, so you have to bogan a bolt hole here.

The city turb cam will bolt intothe EL as far as i remember, the cvcc lobes just sit their doing nothing.

The city turb gearbox also bolts on no probs as long as you use a city turb flywheel.

For the turbo oil feed you just use the fitting that is used on the city, that "T" thing.

To get the city rocker cover on you also need to add about 1cm width of ali to the sealing surface as the EL rocker cover has radiused corners that the city doesnt have.

The city dizzy also has to be chucked on with the TDC sensor.

Other than this is the issue of fueling, the problem is very simiilar to that ofincreasingthe boost in a city, WHAT DO WE DO TO GET MORE FUEL!! Probably the best way would be to put in larger injectors, using the city computer, until a set is found that allows it to run at idle speeds and upto as much boost as possible, then when(hehe) more boost i required set up some supplimentary fueling in the form of stage extra injectors or something like that, just to keep the mixture around 13:1 or therabouts. Not much extra injection will probably be needed before 15 psi because the EL should be at least similar in the gradient of the graph of its fuel consuption versus revs and pressure, so when you find injectors that work down low they *should* be alright upstairs too. Injectors slightly on the large side may be better adjucted for if you have a functioning oxy-sensor in place aswell.

EDIT: Managed to completely overlook the fact that EL is non-cvcc, in this respect I think colza's idea ofremoving the cvcc injector and replacing it with a resistor of similar value and decent power rating should be enough to fool the computer into running the engine for you, this also enables you to wadaptor plate, or cut a bigger hole and just drill and tap a MASSIVE throttle body on, colza and I were gonna chuck a NA C18DDET one on, that would have been really good on that engine I think. This also give everyone a chance to run an aftermarket comp using city sensors and also get a custom intake manifold, pretty easy to fabricate now theres no cvcc, anyone that can weld and cut tueb should be able to make one (just get the flanges laser cut)

As for the EK-EP road, its possibly slightly better if you plan to keep everything stock, as you dont have to block up cvcc ports or remove injectors, just wack in some bigger injectors an away you go(after having done EVERYTHING else listed above)


Hope that helps by putting all the info in one place ;D

-James

[si]

Here's one of the original threads that has alot of info in it: http://www.cityturbo.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=GEN;action=display;num=1066134956

[QikLude]

Cheers for the replys

I might get keen and grab that EL, I can build it up myself in my spare time i guess.

Cheers

Jw

[Colza]

Every time someone brings this back up i start thinking over how cool it would be to get my EL in and boosting. And i start budgeting it, and as soon as a remember that id have to run aftermarket engine management i tell myself to stop being silly and get on with whatever im supposed to be doing on the car ::)

One day though. It will happen. Perhaps in more prosperous times

[QikLude]

I see the move to aftermarket control as SUCH a good thing.

Makes me a lot keener to do it, Im quite used to Link's , so I might keep an eye out for a 2nd hand unit one day..

My problem is I just want the car going, its not my main project, I can however see the potential with a much better breathing head and some aftermarket goodness!

Perhaps Pgnuta will be keen though

Cheers

[PGNUTA]

I'm looking out the the EP goodness, i want the 1.8 just for the brag value

[Colza]

That would be the EK. And i believe the only difference between it and the 1600 EL is the crank, which is interchangeable between the two.

[QikLude]

[quote author=Colza link=board=GEN;num=1100296130;start=0#7 date=11/15/04 at 18:29:49]That would be the EK. And i believe the only difference between it and the 1600 EL is the crank, which is interchangeable between the two.[/quote]

but the EK head, still has the bigger valves, and has CVCC so a direct bolt on for city turbo running gear etc?

Im thinking ditching the CVCC and going the EL (even stroked with that crank) will produce more power that ek with cvcc...

but yeah, doesnt sound as cool

Cheers

[city_cabriolet]

I want one too now

mmmm, bigger cubes city turbo... ;D

[John_S.]

Well hey fellows,
I had no idea so many of you were on this same bent. By the way do any of you still hear from Charles Hatcher? I currently have 2EF1 blocks(CVCC1600),one or two EM1 blocks(laterCVCC1500) and one EK2(late1751). Besides several CVCC heads I also have two early nonCVCC 1500-1600 heads and one nonCVCC later EK2 head. I've been collecting this stuff for some time. I really like the idea of a 1600 non CVCC turbo motor. I have read this and the other thread and I can't tell, has anyone been able to get one of these "big block" conversions going? I really would like to build something of this nature, partly because I have so many of the basic pieces , but also because I don't like the idea of chopping up the frame of the car to fit any of the more modern powerplants. I noticed in some of the threads some were concerned with the rev capabilities of the larger motors. No Worries as you say...a balance job and proper assembly and they will easily handle 6500RPM. Honda is extremely pessimistic in the figures they print...I'm sure they know it too... the EB's could handle 8000RPM at short bursts. No BS here I saw a mechanic  aquaintance of mine tach a freshly broken in balanced and blueprinted 1335EB to 10,000 and hold it there for what to me seemed forever. He continued to drive the crap out of that motor for some time after that(over a year). Though I'm not suggesting you should try this at home.
Anyway getting back to the turbo stuff, I would also add two suggestions. First use the longer rods that go with the shorter stroke crank and have forged pistons made up to fit them in place properly. This effects TDC timing and lessens the tendency to detonate...also builds more power. second if we are going to do some welding on the manifold side of the head, then why not reshape the combustion chambers with a more modern "Quench" design. I'd be doing some portwork anyway so that is only taking it a small step further, this also lessens the tendency to detonate... more boost, or cheaper gas and same boost.
Oh, by the way, my "fleet" is:
1983 Civic 'S" California car...high miles no rust.
1978 1500CVCC California car...low miles no rust.
1983 Civic 4-dr driver...non CVCC head 1500, hi miles.
1979 Civic 1200 rustbucket driver, high miles but still on the origional motor...never had a valve job...still running origional cam...I don't believe it myself!
1979 1200 on blocks... some rust, but fixable...will take over for above 1200 when it finally rusts in two. (probably won't be long)
Oh yeah, I'm in the southern part of the rustbelt...state of Missouri, USA.

[QikLude]

Nice to hear from you John_S.!

yeh, i dont think anyones done the FULL conversion on the 1600 NON cvcc + aftermarket ECU.

I can get a NZ El block for nothing here and give it a try if people are keen?
I do have a aftermarket ECU lying around, and can weld the head etc myself...

Im really tempted just to see if it can be done, i think it would make for a potent car!

The factory ER pistons are nice and flat, so no heat spots for detonation, which is one of there charms, but im guessing they dont fit the bore of any of the other early motors?
What shape are the EL / ep / ek etc pistons on top? flat/domed etc?

Cheers

Jw

[John_S.]

Quicklude et all,
I have a question to ask you guys about the 1600EL 1751EK cranks. Obviously they are on the same bore centers if they fit the 1751 blocks. Our statside 1500-1600 cranks only fit the early EC,ED,EF blocks, so I'm guessing the 1600 EL crank must be a different crank from the 1600 EF cranks that we saw here only in the early '76-'78 Accords, do any of you know if this is so? Also I've seen the specs on the Japanese EK's producing close to 100 HP. Our cars smogged down only made 75 HP. I'd sure like to find out what changes allowed the extra power, i.e.cam timing no smog crap etc. Finally in answer to your question about the stateside pistons, the later 80-83 EM1 1500 used flattops with notches to clear the valves...were very valve timing sensitive...and yielded 9:3-1 comp ratio with our CVCC 4-port exhaust head. the earlier cars used dished pistons all except the early '75 model year which was a flatop design. They yielded 7:9 to 8:1 comp ratios depending on year with the worthless 2-port exhaust head.

[Colza]

I was under the impression that the EL and EK blocks were the same. The only difference in the bottom end is the crank which has a longer stroke in the EK.

I havent seen the guts of an EK though so im not 100% sure on all that.

QikLude:
My EL pistons are dished by about 0.5-1.0 mm

John S:
Here is a quote from "How to Rebuild your Honda Car Engine" by Tom Wilson:

Honda introduced the Accord in '76 and with it a 1600cc engine. The 1600 is essientially a 1488 with a 6.5mm longer stroke. It also has a cast-iron block and CVCC cylinder head.
      1979 marked the introduction of the sporty Honda Prelude. Like the Accord, the Prelude brought a new engine with it, the 1751. This time, bore was increased 3mm to 77mm; stroke was increased another 1mm to 94mm.

The accord engine he is talking about i think is your 1600 EF and the Prelude engine is a 1751 EK. The book however makes no mention of the EL 1600 at all, either because they were too rare to bother including, or because they only came out in Canada?

[robg]

so what power are we talking from a hardcore boosted 1800 city ? 300+hp  ;D ;D ;D