James' Civic Rebuild Thread + High Power ER Motor Theory

[James]

Cheers man, did some sandblasting yesterday and painted a little bit with some POR15. Its nice paint to work with.

Im keen to get back to the engine build too, hopefully it wont be so damn expensive!! Cant wait to peel some rubber off with the supercharger

[James]

Did some more cleaning and got half the engine bay in POR15. Wait for that to cure fully then I will sand it flat, do the seam sealing, wack some primer on, do the required bogging with primer touchups, sand primer and then base/clear. Brushed the POR 15 on again so I can be assured to get perfect coverage all up under stuff and everything thats easy to miss when spraying. Now I know its all sealed I can just primer and base/clear the bits you can see.

[ProT]

Hey bigelboe,

With the CVCC injector timing, do you know if it and the main injectors have different pulse widths?

I know you calculated the equation for the CVCC injector. CVCC TIME = MAIN TIME * 0.384 + 0.830.

So could the CVCC injector and main injector be run via an ECU that allows a dual table mode with each table tuned independently.

Also I've been asked - what does the PGM-FI use to time the injection events? If there is a requirement to fire the CVCC before the main injector pulse or can they be fired at the same time?

[James]

Hey bigelboe,

With the CVCC injector timing, do you know if it and the main injectors have different pulse widths?

I know you calculated the equation for the CVCC injector. CVCC TIME = MAIN TIME * 0.384 + 0.830.

So could the CVCC injector and main injector be run via an ECU that allows a dual table mode with each table tuned independently.

Also I've been asked - what does the PGM-FI use to time the injection events? If there is a requirement to fire the CVCC before the main injector pulse or can they be fired at the same time?

I had forgotten all that stuff I did back then. The formula I give there answers your first question, the CVCC injector pulse widths are related to the main injector pulse widths by that equation, hence they are not the same. The CVCC injector also fires 4 times more often that the other injectors. The other injectors only fire once for each of their particular cylinder intake valve openings, the CVCC injector supplies all of the cylinders so it has to fire for every intake valve opening.

With dual table cant you just run from one or the other? Not both at the same time to seperate injectors?

There are two trigger wheels in the cam angle sensor that bolts on the end of the head by the dizzy. One triggers 4 times, once for each intake valve opening . The other triggers once for Cyl 1 TDC. The injectors can be fired at the same time, they are with the factory ECU.

mmmmmmmmm If you fired the main injectors sequentially, like in the factory ECU, you could use diodes connected to them to fire the CVCC injector whenever one of the other injectors was being fired. Im in macOS at the moment otherwise I would MSPaint you a picture If it doesn't provide enough fuel like that (my guess is it would) you might have to bump up the fuel pressure to the CVCC injector or something.

[ProT]

Hey bigelboe,

Thanks for your thoughts, work and help with this.

I've asked a few questions over on the MegaSquirt forums and I have been advised the following regarding the dual table mode.

"You can run both tables at the same time but you can't have different number of injector firings for the two tables. But I don't think this is a big issue. You could just fire both the CVCC injector and the main injectors 4 times per cycle. Of course, the injector pulse width for the main injectors will have to be a quarter of what it would be in a sequential system but it should still run fine. And the ECU will automatically do this if you tell it to fire 4 times per cycle.

So you just need to configure your setup to have all the main injectors on one injector channel, the CVCC injector on the other injector channel, set the system for 4 squirts per cycle, and use the dual table mode. You'll need to tune both tables together to get the correct ratio but that should accomplish what you want."

So would this suit our needs for a programmable ECU?

I understand if you upgrade to the MegaSquirt II, there it also programmable spark management.

So my next question would be, what would be the best/easiest distributor to install, OBD0 or OBD1? Or have I jumped way ahead of myself?

[3GCVC]

I have just about decided that NO dizzy will fit on there without some serious work, the top radiator hose and thermostat housing are just too constricting around the end of the cam and there is no way a newer dizzy will fit in the stock hole even with an adaptor to make it work,

i have just about given up and will be using like a MSD 6BTM or possibly some other cam fired wasted spark which can be controlled but that is yet to be sorted out.

[James]

Hey bigelboe,

Thanks for your thoughts, work and help with this.

I've asked a few questions over on the MegaSquirt forums and I have been advised the following regarding the dual table mode.

"You can run both tables at the same time but you can't have different number of injector firings for the two tables. But I don't think this is a big issue. You could just fire both the CVCC injector and the main injectors 4 times per cycle. Of course, the injector pulse width for the main injectors will have to be a quarter of what it would be in a sequential system but it should still run fine. And the ECU will automatically do this if you tell it to fire 4 times per cycle.

So you just need to configure your setup to have all the main injectors on one injector channel, the CVCC injector on the other injector channel, set the system for 4 squirts per cycle, and use the dual table mode. You'll need to tune both tables together to get the correct ratio but that should accomplish what you want."

So would this suit our needs for a programmable ECU?

Yes that sounds perfect, I had no idea the megasquirt was able to do that. I suggest you enquire to the possibility of programmatically generating the CVCC fuel table, using that equation I gave before. That was you wouldn't have to worry about tuning it.

I understand if you upgrade to the MegaSquirt II, there it also programmable spark management.

So my next question would be, what would be the best/easiest distributor to install, OBD0 or OBD1? Or have I jumped way ahead of myself?

As alex said above, there are no 'easy' dizzies for spark management. However, the megasquirt is pretty flexible. If you removed the mechanical and vacuum advance in the dizzy, and added some trigger points to the crank pulley you could just use that with an external ignitor. Have a read on megasquirt about people who have retro-fitted programmable ignition to a carby car, I know there are a few that have.

Could you link me to a description of the dual table function of the megasquirt?

[ProT]

The MegaSquirt Manual is here
http://www.megamanual.com

Are these of interest?
http://www.megamanual.com/mtabcon.htm
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mtune.htm#ve

Downloadable version
http://www.megamanual.com/files/

It's got an Autotune feature would that work?
http://www.megamanual.com/megatune.htm#autotune

and the section on VE Table 2 (dual table mode only)
http://www.megamanual.com/megatune.htm#t2
Is that the part you need?

[ProT]

And what about this for the ignition with a modified original distributor?

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.as ... &SUBCATID=

The unit will trigger from a range of sources including points, Hall effect sensors, optical sensors, or the 5 volt signal from the car's ECU. Timing can be mapped against engine load and RPM and adjusted in step as small as 0.5°.

[James]

Not sure why I have never looked at that programmable ignition thing, I always just assumed it was for replacing points

That is almost exactly what I intended to build. I probably will still build my own, as I would like to add a few things. Would move the ignitor section external to the board, use a standard 2nd gen civic external ignitor or a generic GM one. This would allow me to move the unit inside the factory city turbo case. I would add datalogging and programming to the program and use the same connector on the ECU (probably USB) to datalog both the ECU and the Ignition controller. So essentially I would end up just using their signal conditioning parts.

But anyway, Im pretty sure the megasquirt can do exactly the same thing. Will have another read of the manual when I get a chance, havn't looked at it in a while.

[bestsx8]

absolutelly adorable... looking forward for more!

[James]

Made some more progress on this tonight and last night. Working on making the replacement panel I got from the states fit, cut the new windscreen wiper hole and welded most of it back together. Also removed some un-needed bracketry that happened to be attached by far too many spot welds. All going pretty well tho, hoping to have that panel all painted underneath and read to be welded on the car by the end of the week. I have been mucking around in that area of the car for ages without actually getting much done so this is a good step. After thats back on I will finish the passenger side of the engine bay and move onto the roof. Shouldn't take long if I keep at it like I am currently.

[Colza]

Bracketry is definitely a real word.

Good to see youve got back into it

[James]

*sigh* found out that the POR15 I painted on half me engine bay stuck about as well as insulation tape, I can peel it off with my fingernail. Did some googling and apparently its pretty sensitive to prep and you really need to use their MetalReady stuff on anything but rusty old steel.

Soooo off comes all the already painted shite and some new stuff will go on next weekend when we do cols T2

[Dxs]

that sucks balls

i have the 'marine clean'.. which is just like a prep wash
and the 'metal ready'

seems POR15 is real anal about application, doesnt like moist air either (which sucks for me at the moment)