James' Civic Rebuild Thread + High Power ER Motor Theory

[James]

probably premature but wondering if theres any plans for the gearbox itself and the body of the car ie. light wieght doors, plastic-ish windows, etcetera?

...I must admit this is all very exciting to follow!

. . . so once its all finished and running, you'll be putting together a bolt on CityTurbo 200hp kit I trust ?

For the gearbox I am going to use a rebuilt T2 gearbox, this should hold the power fine, they are faily similar to other Honda gearboxe sin their construction. Some 8 second FWD drag cars in the states are running close to 1000hp through standard b18c gearboxes!!

For clutch I am going to run a lightened T2 flywheel (not too much turbo cars like a bit of weight to boost against), with a standard organic friction plate and an uprated pressure plate. Lots of people over here get away with this on B series engines, I went for a drive in a 500hp EG civic that was running a standard b18c5 friction plate just with a fairly heavy uprated spring int he pressure plate.

I won't be heading down the light weight route on this car, this is my daily driver so I want soud deadening and windows that don't rattle and a stereo. My car weighs about 800kg wet at the moment, will probably go up with the turbo manifold and stuff, but not too much. 800kg and 200hp should be plenty fast up to legal speeds. Im not a big fan of anything 120+ very often anyway, the street isn't the place for it. In saying that it will probably make it to a few club track days so I can see what it does with no limits except me and the car For a track day I would strip out all spare interior, saves about 40kg including tools and spare wheel etc, makes a very noticable difference.

Everything that I am doing will be relatively easy to copy, once I have tuned the car the file for that will be available, you can easily buy the same turbo I have, can easily get someone to make a manifold for it etc. Going to something like quad throttles won't be nesc., could get away with a modified factory manifold and TB.

hehe i have a devious plan afoot to build a copy of bigelboe's engine once he has ironed out all the bugs.
ide do it right now with him on my spare motor but funds dont currently allow it.
keep up the good work bigelboe.
matt

Hehe fair enough, I am kee to see how far these motors will go on factory internals. I already have plans for the motor I am going to put in my car after this one

[stum]

im holding off till you get your engine done i want to see how this t25 goes as people have been saying they are laggy as.
how much port work are you going to do?
120 clicks will come and go before you know it if your going to run 13's

[James]

im holding off till you get your engine done i want to see how this t25 goes as people have been saying they are laggy as.
how much port work are you going to do?
120 clicks will come and go before you know it if your going to run 13's

Yeah I am interested to see how the t25 will go too. As for port work I am going to kepe it pretty minimal. The head I am using has already had a little bit done and I am probably going to leave it at that, just means I will have to run a few more psi of boost than you could get away with a better flowing head.

13's in street trim would be nice, should be fairly easy with an LSD. Stripped with some drag tyres 12's would be in my targets.

[James]

Man how far was this down the list! Anyway I do have some progress, if only thoughts.

At the moment Im trying to make up my mind whether to use OBD0 or OBD1 Honda electronics. OBD0 (which is from 88-91 Hondas in general, like Si Civics and integras) is good because the hardware is cheaper and its very capable at handling the sort of thing a 200hp city motor needs to do. The downside is the wiring is completely different, the ECU plugs are all different and I think 3 new sensors need to be wired in, CRANK sesor, Speed sensor and one Ive forgotten. Im probably going to lay completely new wiring so its not too much of a concern for me, but if any of you guys want to copy me youd have to do that too, which would be a bit of a pain.

The alternative is OBD1 (91~98 Civic and integras). The hardware, ECU and Dizzy and stuff is a fair bit more expensive, would probably have to spend $1-200 on it, compared to like $20-30 for the OBD0 stuff. The programming software is a bit better, with some really cool autotuning stuff and development is still gonig strong, where obd0 has sort of stalled. The real bonus is that they use the same ECU plugs as our beloved cities, which is pretty crazy. So all I would have to do is shuffle some pins around in the plugs, run like 5 extra wires for the extra sensors and change the dizzy plug, would be like an afternoons work.

So yeah, any input would be much appreciated. If any of you other guys plan on following in my footsteps speak up now, cause if there is a couple of you then I will go with OBD1 to make it easier for you guys then you can use the programs and things I develop, will be starting with tuning the new ECU system to run on a pretty much stock T2 block with a T1 turbo.

On another note I think I have decided where I want to mount the turbo. I am planning on bolting it to the gearbox and making a thin wall stainless steel turbo manifold. It can be thin wall because there will be no stress on it from the turbo being mounted tot he gearbox. As an added bonus it should look super cool I need to have a look at how much clearence there is in a city chassis because this motor will probably end up in Fireslugs cab if I have my way

Anyway, your comments and discussion would be welcome, have a read here for ECU chipping stuffs http://forum.pgmfi.org/ or just ask

[madmini]

The alternative is OBD1 (91~98 Civic and integras). The hardware, ECU and Dizzy and stuff is a fair bit more expensive, would probably have to spend $1-200 on it, compared to like $20-30 for the OBD0 stuff. The programming software is a bit better, with some really cool autotuning stuff and development is still gonig strong, where obd0 has sort of stalled. The real bonus is that they use the same ECU plugs as our beloved cities, which is pretty crazy. So all I would have to do is shuffle some pins around in the plugs, run like 5 extra wires for the extra sensors and change the dizzy plug, would be like an afternoons work.

from reading this and im not clued on ecus ie i'd like to plug in and play i'd go for this as your saying in one sence its a little more expensive but the development is still strong where as the other is stainding still so to speak,but in saying this are we talking about useing the std city turbo ecu and tinkering with it or runing other honda ecus?,would/could we use the likes of afftermarket ecus like link ect should someone want to get the most out of the city turbo.

if you could do say a few ecus already to go chiped or whatever and wiring diagrams of what to change and install im shure most people on here would be up for one.

thats my 5C worth

[turbocab]

i would really like to follow in your footsteps with my motor so yes i would prefer to go with the easier to wire up computer.
matt

[James]

The alternative is OBD1 (91~98 Civic and integras). The hardware, ECU and Dizzy and stuff is a fair bit more expensive, would probably have to spend $1-200 on it, compared to like $20-30 for the OBD0 stuff. The programming software is a bit better, with some really cool autotuning stuff and development is still gonig strong, where obd0 has sort of stalled. The real bonus is that they use the same ECU plugs as our beloved cities, which is pretty crazy. So all I would have to do is shuffle some pins around in the plugs, run like 5 extra wires for the extra sensors and change the dizzy plug, would be like an afternoons work.

from reading this and im not clued on ecus ie i'd like to plug in and play i'd go for this as your saying in one sence its a little more expensive but the development is still strong where as the other is stainding still so to speak,but in saying this are we talking about useing the std city turbo ecu and tinkering with it or runing other honda ecus?,would/could we use the likes of afftermarket ecus like link ect should someone want to get the most out of the city turbo.

if you could do say a few ecus already to go chiped or whatever and wiring diagrams of what to change and install im shure most people on here would be up for one.

thats my 5C worth

I have moved away from using the standard city trbo ECU mainly because it doesnt have spark control. If you really want to tune up a car and get the best economy and power from it you really need to be tunning the ignition AND fuel, something thats just really not easy with a vacuum/mechanical advance dizzy.

The ECU's Im talking about using are chipped ECU's from mid 90's Hondas. With the free software that is kicking around the net they become pretty much as powerful as aftermarket ECU's and better in many respects. Certainly they are a damn site better than the older style links and equivalents.

I have decided to go with the OBD1 because the development is still strong, I might be able to collaborate with a few people around the place and work out how to add a driver for the CVCC injector, that would be pretty flash!

Im in negotiations with a few people at the moment trying to get hold of an OBD1 dstributor and ECU, the dizzy's convinently use the same key drive that city turbo TDC and CYL sensor unit on the gearbox end of the head uses and will just need minor modification to get correct fitmet. The only extra sensor we have to add is the speed sensor, Im not sure what this even looks like at this stage but Im hoping I can sort something out that goes in the instrument cluster or something. Standard city turbos do have a signal that is proportional to speed because its what is used to set off the buzzer and things so we may be able to just use that with a bit of modification.

Cheers for your input matty^^

Hopefully I might get a chance to go and see fireslug tomorrow, will be good to see the green beast in the flesh!

[3GCVC]

that sounds good, any chance of changing a few things for it to work on my EW5?

[James]

Yeha man it should work on your car fine, will just need a slightly different tune, probably just a bit richer.

Well, I finally did it, I finally chucked an oscilloscope on my car to see what the CVCC injector is doing!!

OK so firstly, the CVCC injector fires every intake trigger, unlike the main injectors that only fire on the corresponding intake cycle, so it fires 4 times more often.

At a warm idle the main injectors sit at about 2ms, and the CVCC injector sits at 1.6ms. At light load, IE colza slipping the clutch against the handbrake the main injector does 4.6ms and the CVCC injector does 2.6ms.

So, from those two points I can generate an equation for the CVCC injector. This is:

CVCC TIME = MAIN TIME * 0.384 + 0.830

I really need to plot some more points on this graph to confirm this equation. When its confirmed I am going to build a CVCC injector controller. This will be a very small box that is connected to the main injectors and will drive the CVCC injector. This will solve the problem of running any other ECU's

I can also scale some base maps to match those injector timings I just took so I have a good place to start with in my tuning.

[James]

ECU and dizzy are on their way $100 for an ECU, dizzy with coil and ignitor internal, couple of plugs and a 4-wire O2 sensor.

The pile of parts for the 200hp motor is growing!

[James]

Have the parts. It appears I stuffed up my reasearch a bit with the plugs. Turns out I need an OBD0 Vtec ECU to get the plug compatibility with Standard City Turbo, Oh well.

So I am going to wire the car to take both ECU's, and thats gonna mean both Dizzy's at the same time too, which is going to require some creative modification of the thermostat housing section that normally holds the cam angle and TDC sensor.

Anway, enough for tonight. Hopefully pics and a guide to socketing an ECU tomorrow!

[ProT]

Possibly more than you paid for the ECU and dizzy, but may save you time.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 66488&rd=1

[James]

I got offered one of those by the guy I bought the rest of the hardware off, but I declined. Ill sort something out. Maybe make a custom case with city turbo plugs in it but an OBD1 ECU board, that would be a pretty neat solution I think.

Just to let everyone know I am still going to pursue chipping of the factory ECU. Thats why Im going to try and set it up so I can run either ECU without modifying anything.

[3GCVC]

from what motor do you think is the best ECU and dizzy to run the OBDO and 1 Respectively? i have found an adaptor for my motor.

[James]

from what motor do you think is the best ECU and dizzy to run the OBDO and 1 Respectively? i have found an adaptor for my motor.

If you want to run OBD0 then you need the ECU and dizzy from a b16a da6 I think. If you want to run OBD1 then it doesn't really matter, they all have the same plugs and pretty much the same dizzies.

What do you mean an adaptor for your motor? Does it go from the EW-5 ECU plugs to OBD-1 ones or something? If thats the case then its probably an OBD0 VTEC to OBD1 boomslang harness. In which case you would have to shuffle pins around in the factory plugs on your loom and add a few extra.