Computer help!!

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alex
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Computer help!!

Postby alex » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:48 am

Well now that the HKS comp has been sold im thinking about getting like a microtech or wolf or sumfin more tunable and better. a question for all is it hard to wire one up to the harness if i have the wiring diagrams.well im just curious if i wire it up and theres all these wires left over and beacuse of a after market computer what happens with CVCC.... everyones help would be greatly appriciated. Thanks

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JohnT
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Postby JohnT » Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:25 pm

Chris & I wired up the computer wiring to various sub-looms in our Civic / City, not too hard to do the wiring but tedious. You also need to make sure your connections are secure. We found that the crimp style joiners with sealant in were most reliable.

As to the CVCC injector, it is an issue - you actually need to measure the current set up (A multi channel oscilloscope would do the trick.) The thing of interest is whether the fifth injector fires when each other individual injector goes. If so, easy to use some TTL logic to "OR" gate the output of the four lines and make your own driver block. But something of an electronics project, and you'd need to use robust open collector drivers with a decent temperature rating. If it fires on some other pattern it will be interesting to solve ......

Remember that there is a single CVCC injector for all four cylinders, located on the throttle body. So five injectors to drive. Of course if the computer you plan to use is smart enough you can probably get it to fire a single injector at four times the rate of the other four. You will of course also have to feed in TDC and CYL sensor points, as well as the knock sensor, plus O2, air temp and water temp.

John

alex
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Postby alex » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:35 pm

so can i use all the wires from the harness now or do i have to run other things

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JohnT
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Postby JohnT » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:39 pm

The existing wires can be used, but you will need to remap the pinouts to suite the new computer. You might also have to do some electronics to get teh fifth injector to fire often enough.
John

alex
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Postby alex » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:48 pm

what did you use on your green machine john. my goal is to make over 100kw at the wheels am i going the wrong way about it or will i definatley need a computer or are there other things that can be done

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Postby JohnT » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:56 pm

I understand that Charles had a previous Civic / City that was up there in the power stakes. If you read the description in our post on the green civic, you'll see things like: Ported throttle body, knife edge throttle blades, ported inlet manifold, custom exhaust (equal length) manifold, Garrett GT17 (oil & water cooled) turbo an dso on. Oh, and high tensile big end and head bolts / studs, balanced crank / pistons etc. (There is absolutely no problem revving outto 7,000 rpm ...) Maybe oversized injectors, I'm a little unclear ...

We have never dyno'ed our machine, but suspect with a bit of tweaking it would be up there. The standard Honda computer is pretty quick, but has a standard mixture MAP table. There is code for a MUGEN racing turbo MAP table, which changes the mixture settings - I believe Charles has it. He did offer it to us, but we have never followed it up.

Of course, the grenn beast with this engine is for sale ....

John

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Postby alex » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:04 pm

is charles the guy with the username charles i would like to get in contact with him

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JohnT
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Postby JohnT » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:06 pm

I expect so - Charles Hatcher, the recognised expert on everything to do with hotting up Hondas.
John

alex
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Postby alex » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:14 pm

who ported your throttle body and how much did that cost you roughly

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Postby JohnT » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:16 pm

I believe Charles did it himself.
J

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Postby James » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:23 am

100kW at the wheels is do-able with the standard ECU.

The highest power city I know of was Angus Buttons "STUBBY" and it was running around 25 PSI of boost from a GT17 (I tihnk maybe t25). Forged arias pistons(It has later been said charles has never seen a city piston fail with good mixtures) forged rods, ARP head studs and rod bolts clamping stock head gaskets down with 10Nm more torque, a boost ignition retard module, factory intake and factory ported throttle body. It was running the factory city ECU with larger prelude injectors, and an adjustable FPR. It had no tune whatsoever and was running like 10:1 mixtures at high boost. They dyned it on a 35 degree day somewhere in oz and got around 200Hp at the engine. With proper mixtures and on like a 20 degree day that sould have been well over that, probably 220-230+.


It is my opinion that you could go about modificatino in a more refined way than charles did and get the same power but more elegantly.
I would:

Make a new intake manifold keeping CVCC and with a single large butterfly, just like the one colza made (but neater :P)

Get something like a GT25 that is capable of about 200Hp on its upper limit and doesnt mind around 20psi of boost. Stick it on a good manifold

Get a good intercooler, charge temps are going to be crucial.

Rebuild your engine, make sure its in factory new condition, can re-use pistons and rods but replace everything else.

Port and polish your head, dont make the ports much if any larger, just smooth them out paying special attention to the short side radius.

Get a hot cam, there are still a few places over here that do cams for them, a hot cam is going to shift your power band higher and the HT rod bolts are going to enable you to safely use it, THIS shifting of power band is crucial to making power as power is a direct function of torque and revs, so two ways to make it, increase the revs and keep the torque, increase the torque and keep the revs. You can get so far with the second method but a combination of the two is how its gotta be done in my opinion.

Get a good extra injector controller like a turbo link. That way you can still keep a good idle and off-boost mixtures but when the boost gets serious you can provide accurate fueling, Get it tuned by someone who knows what they are doing and has a wideband O2 meter and a knock sensor!

Ignition you MAY have to play with, I havnt done it yet so I dont know, but you may well have to reduce the amount of advance and gap down the plugs or something, sort this out when it comes to tuning, a good tuner will know whether you will have to. If they dont knnow about CVCC take a printout of the description of it to them, it will help them understand the massive ignition advance.

Anyway im sure ive forgotten shit but at least that gives you some stuff to think about, there are a lot of things you need to sort and get running before you think about aftermarket ECU's. If you get the engine i described above running well on factory fueling up to 15psi and break the motor in. Then start to think about extra fueling and stuff.

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Postby city_cabriolet » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:07 am

You could easily throw 20k on a desired engine...

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James
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Postby James » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:30 am

Quote from me has more info.

Hey silver2, been thinking a bit more about your quest. What exactly was the mixtures you got when you dynoed it?

Im thinking that it may be worthwhile to invest in an aftermarket ECU.

The only city turbo I have read about that has made 200hp was angus buttons car, I just found rough specs on it.
Quote:
Motor just rebuilt
Arias forged pistons
Balanced and blueprinted internals
Light flywheel and Exeddy clutch
Front mount I/C
Garret water cooled T2 turbo
2.5 inch exhaust from turbo
Blitz dual SBC (low boost or high boost option)
turbo timer
Oil cooler
ARP head studs
ARP rod bolts
Total seal gapless compression rings
Reco head with all new factory valve stem seals and cvcc valve rebuild
Mild cam
Jacobs Boost master boost retard module
Jacob CDi ignition and transformer coil
Cold air intake with bonnet vent feed
HPC coated silver I/C pipes
Drag way 6" 13 wheels with 215 rubber
Custom Paint
Custom Interior
Odyssey racing battery (boot mounted)
VL turbo fuel pump
Racing wheel
Stereo
Gear knob
Pedals
Dark tint



And this has a little more info
Quote:
Email me off line as Angus' city is very hot ~200hp, 26psi boost, front mount, forged pistons, tints, interior, stereo, koni suspension, aftermarket ignition, boost master ignition retard, ARP bolts and studs, fat little wheels, bonnet vents etc, odyssey light weight battery, gapless rings, big exhaust, basically nothing is left standard.



and this is about using lude injectors, the 190cc he talks about is standard T2

Quote:
about 190cc/min. I have used prelude injectors with a flow rate of around 240cc/min. With a fresh O2 sensor the ECU could handle it once warm BUT that was for a car running 26psi and it ran rich at about 10:1 with those injectors at full boost and revs. Don't upgrade the stockers until you start running lean. Low down what will suffer as that is when the ECU reverts to fuel maps not closed loop. Long spool up lower power than could be acheived with less boost and less fuel. A lot of tuners build in extra fuel to give a safety margin at maximum boost.



So he made 200hp running at 10:1, lean that out to like 13:1 and it probably could have made another 30-40

This is another guy who got his dynoed with standard injectors
Quote:
m just wonderin if any1 has had their car dynoed, and the power rating at the wheels if uve had it done.

my t2 is pumping 100bhp at the wheels at 14psi
with
big front mount
intercooler piping 2 inch
straight through 2.5 inch
gfb blow off
gfb boost control
hd clutch
rebuilt gear box
highflowed turbo at 14psi



another quote from charles, pretty much outlining what I have said already, he recons 200HP with 20psi...
Quote:
100hp at the wheels is bloody good!

My best
105kw@ the wheels (140hp)
36 degree day, 98% humidity (Typical Cairns summer day)

Same mods as above but 26psi boost, Garret T2 turbo (original is a better turbo IMHO). Forged pistons, and a few other bits and pieces (head studs, rod bolts, minor porting, bigger injectors).

Same combo put down about 93hp at 14-15psi so it seems like your system is pretty effective. The big injectors meant 10-11:1 AFR though which is too rich for power making but safer for detonation. I reckon same combo would make same power at wheels with normal AFR 12.8:1 and only 20psi.

Increasing boost in a city will increase torque more than hp. This thing put down more torque than a new S15 turbo and similar peak hp.

Current integra type R puts down about 95kw at the wheels.



bit more
Quote:
but for reference 100kw (140hp)at the wheels is usually around 147kw (200hp) at the fly (at least on the dyno I use).



Also just dug up some more info and charles said that the standard city intake manifold maybe with a bit of smoothing should handle 200HP, and that the throttle body is the main restriction, that I think you will have to replace.

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Postby alex » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:27 am

well how much am i looking at roughly if i fit a front mount cooler, iv got a full exhuast im adding a screamer pipe, getting a adjustable fuel press reg, fuel cut def and giving it boost am i still off 100kw

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Postby James » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:13 am

You most probably wont get 100wkW from the standard turbo, probably get close. How do you intend to fuel it? Turning up the fuel pressure is a pretty shit way cause it increases the fuel all over the board. Extra injector all the way y0.


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